Darko Salaj is Operations Director at Giggling Squid, where he brings over 25 years of hospitality experience across major brands like Prezzo and Chimichanga. Known for his hands-on leadership and candid insights, Darko has helped scale Giggling Squid to over 50 sites while preserving its founder-led spirit.
Conor Sheridan is the founder and CEO of Nory, an AI-powered restaurant management system alongside being the co-founder of Mad Egg. Conor blends hands-on restaurant experience with a passion for tech-driven efficiency and profitability in hospitality.
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Hey everyone, Connor here, founder and CEO of Nori and welcome to What's Cooking. Today we talk about systemization, something every operator strives for. We try to build systems and SOPs for everything. From setting up your restaurant, to interacting with your guests, even ordering your inventory, we obsess over consistency. But let's be honest, no matter how sharp your process is, how tight your SOPs are, or how shiny your tech stack is, the ground always shifts beneath you. What worked last quarter might not work today. And the brands that succeed aren't chasing perfection. They're adapting as they go. And most importantly, they're building resilience into their systems. That's especially true as you scale. You can't just add more people and hope for the best. You need to rethink how workflows, how decisions are made at speed and scale. Make sure you're not losing consistency and most importantly, quality. That's the difference between a growth story and the story of a breakdown.
Well, Darko, thanks so much for joining us.
Well, thank you for inviting me today.
That's awesome. Really looking forward to our conversation. Might start super, super brief intro into yourself and kind of your journey and hospitality. You have a super impressive CV, so be keen to get a little bit on the TLDR there.
Yeah, sure. So in hospitality for the last 25 years, kind of progressed through the ranks. And as you, you know, sometimes hear these stories from a waiter to my current position. I used to work for a little family owned business many years ago that had seven sites. And then was at some point approached by a pretzel, which was opening the second site. Second. second side. at the time I was like, I don't know what this company is all about. So I kind of politely declined. And then years later, joined Pretzel, obviously, and then stayed with that company until about maybe they had 300 sites that it was eventually sold to investment fund from us. And then kind of things changed. And yeah, before that, moved sideways because Pretzel had few brands. So I kind of moved from the Italian brand to a Mexican brand called Chimichanga, which unfortunately no longer exists. And then the journey kind of led me to Gigginsquid, where I am at the moment.
Really nice. Two to 300 sites. So that was a journey, right?
But that was a journey. I was on a different role then. So not in the same roles. I couldn't really say that I've had the same experience, but yeah, I stayed with that company for quite a long time. And it was a good time because it was family-owned, family-owned for most of the time. And he had that family-owned feeling. wasn't very corporate, even though he was massive.
It's huge to get that family out. So now you're in an operational leadership role at Gagging Squid. Talk to us a little bit about some of those scaling challenges. You've done a you've been leading the business operationally through a period now that everyone listening from the industry will know has been one of most challenging in the history probably. How has that been over the last, say, 12 months? What kind of operational challenges have you faced?
I think, yeah, I to maybe go backwards a little bit more. Because in the last few years, as everyone knows, we had few challenges and disruptions on a macro level everywhere, especially hospitality business. We had a bit of Brexit, had COVID, and I think COVID disrupted hospitality in ways that no one could maybe foresee at the time. I think business and life will always have challenges. you know, and nothing's for granted, nothing's guaranteed. I think you just have to, you have to stay true to yourself and simple and just follow, follow your instincts at times. Nothing, nothing can be guaranteed if it makes sense. So, you know, when I reflect on, on COVID, for example, Giggling's good where I am now. We are a bit chaotic as a company. So I have to say we really thrived. during COVID, which is know contradictory, but we I know some other companies struggled, but because the way we are, we I think managed to find our way much quicker and easier. Then the whole Brexit and you know, the labor shortage and of course COVID also played part of that, but we had to we had to change our model maybe from the workforce that we were used to in the past to the workforce will be operated with now, which is mainly young out of college, out of school, first, first jobs.
That's common across a of the brands. Yeah, definitely a challenge. Interesting you say that because the business was slightly chaotic, you were able to react to the challenges. Usually in operations, people are obsessed with systemization, consistency, which I'm sure you are. But why do you think that you were able to maybe execute during COVID from being a little bit more chaotic?
Look, to this day, Gigglin' we don't feel and don't kind of want to be corporate. We almost say it all the time. Not as a joke, but almost like, yeah, we like, we'll never be corporate. You know, this is what we don't stand for. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but we know that once you go corporate and you kind of lose a bit of soul, if it makes sense, we are still to this day, founder led business and anyone who has ever worked for us. founder, you know, in a founder land business understands that it can be chaotic at times, know, I'm sure some of the people that work for you would maybe say the same or, and I think that's why I think that's why we maybe managed to find a way out of COVID or, you know, struggled less in a way.
I like that. It's kind of counterintuitive to what you usually hear. It's really nice.
It is, it is, but to be honest with you, we are very upfront and honest about it. So I even implemented this into our recruitment process just because the way we are, I'm not saying that we complete chaos, you know, but it can be difficult for someone, let's say joining us from a differently structured and organized and run business. So it's an imperative for me that we, very honest in the beginning during recruitment process where we said this is how we are. If you think that's an environment for you, you're more than welcome to join.
I really liked that. do the same thing. I know you almost be worried when you're hiring people from big company or a large corporate where it's board bureaucratic, more process, more systemization, because you need to, yeah, it can be messy, right? You need to want to lean into the mess as they say.
I think you have to have a balance. You have to have a balance. You can't be completely chaotic. That's not healthy. That's not great. But you also can't be completely systemized and structured that there is no room for flex.
If think about the last five months, then sticking on that thread of systems or structure, what's one big operational change or focus you've had for the business and. What kind of challenges did you experience?
So, last 12 months have been a bit fast, I would say for us. We had a bit of a restructure. So, I picked up personally a bit more last year at a different department, other two, my demise. And then obviously took over the whole company in the current role. So, I felt at the time that I had to speed up. I had to speed up just to catch up with everything on beat on time. so I realized as I was speeding up or trying to manage and run everything on time, the team, my team behind was also doing the same. And then I could see that by doing that, we were actually in a way starting to fail, not fail, but struggle. The one change that I kind of implemented in the last 12 months, was actually slow down, down to go faster. not in a negative or bad way, but in a
Nice.
more organized, official way. I've been reflecting on this, even yesterday I had a chat with one of my area managers about that. And I reference Tim Ferriss for our work week book. Because I always kind of remember that. Remember when I read that book, was like, hmm, okay, there's something in it.
When you say slow down to go fast, that focus? that less, less is more? Like do less things? this trying to be less reactive? What does it mean to you?
I think it means maybe all of those things to a certain extent at the same time. think these days with technology and information and all that, there's a lot of noise. There's a lot of noise and there's a lot of, I think as an operator, I can see people maybe spend quite a lot of time, this might sound controversial, doing nothing. you know what I mean. Busy work, yeah. Yeah, I think that's almost a cliche. You know, people saying they're busy when... Maybe they're not as busy as they think they are, or they could be. I think if you just focus a little bit more, I think if you slow down and focus a bit more, you can actually be faster as an end result. You know, kind of filter out the noise a little bit. That sort of approach.
Yeah, I resonate with that. I used to do quarterly planning at the restaurants. Everybody would come with 10 different urgent important things that had to be done and you tried to do all 10, you're just spinning plates. You just don't make any progress. But the times when you narrowed it down to one or two and everybody focused on it and felt like you're doing less, but you're making much more impact.
Yes, I agree. I agree. So I made a conscious decision to have less meetings this year, but more focused meetings. I had kind of constructive chats with different heads of departments, always reflecting on my meetings, saying, I'm not happy. And I said, why? Meeting was weird. I said, I don't think it was. We spent an hour talking about nothing. I'm okay with that. But if we are in a pub, you know... That's where I'm kind of motivating everyone and all that rather than in a meeting where we talk about nothing. So I now consciously shorten the meetings just so that we can focus on the important stuff, get it done, move on.
Nice. It's the Parkinson's law. You fill up the time that you give it with like small talk. Moving a little bit to new site openings. So you've helped go from 200 to 300 in Prezo. You now held scale giggling screens close to 50. You must have a serious playbook for how to open new restaurants. Could you talk to us a little bit about times when it's not worked so well, what you've learned and what's the experience like now? Is it really, really slick or is it still every time does it catch you out a little bit?
I kind of believe nothing's ever slick, you know, I've obviously opened a few sites with Pretzel and Chimichanga, but that was a different company. It was a different company and different times as well. You know, it was a, it was a lot slower, more structured. had more time. Company was different. So my feeling is that openings with Pretzel were a lot more organized and structured, but the ones that I've done with Giggling Squid were a lot more fun, even though. Some were chaotic. You know, I, I could tell you many examples of the openings that went wrong. Most of those are with, actually, I think all of those are with Giggling Squid, you know, ranging from, when we, this is just when I joined the company, we're supposed to open a bath restaurant. I joined in April. They told me we're opening around August. So I had to recruit everyone. At the time, we were, accommodating all our chefs. That was our model. And that's the model that made us succeed and thrive in COVID because all our back of house lived in our properties. So all we had to say is, guys, we start tomorrow at 12 and that's how we reopened. So that was the model. So I had to find all the properties, sign all the agreements with landlords, move the chefs, recruit front of house, recruit management. I did all of that. And then... the opening was postponed and I was told next month and then the next month. To cut the long story short, I had to recruit the full team three times. Because of the challenges in Bath and whatever local council, we ended up opening that site six, eight months later. But that's our story. That's a typical Gigglin' We laugh about that. We laugh about it.
You think about that, you have many restaurants, you look into scale and scale at pace you mentioned quite quickly. Pickups happen. Nothing happens in a straight line. An opening gets postponed by six months. How do you prep the team like the operations team for that that you might have a plan for this year when I open X amount of restaurants? But things can kind of slip.
look, I have a saying, it's not my saying, but I kind of, I use it all the time. And, know, my team even, joke about it. It is what it is in the end of the day in business and in life. I don't say that in a negative way, you know, you can say it in a negative way and almost give up, but I always say it is what it is. There's no going back. What can we learn from this? So where do we go now? I've always kind of thought about that and run it that the same way. And I'm quite fortunate that my team is the same. But I think going back on what you said, I think the most important thing is to stay positive and kind of resilient and kind of learn from mistakes in a way.
Before you said resilient, was a word that was coming to my mind. It is what it is, as in like, we, you take the hits and we just move forward. I mean, just keep going. You just say that's a big piece of the culture you tried to build in the team.
I think it is the big piece, yes. And I kind of, am proud of the fact that I stand behind and push the whole team forward when we have some of those challenges or obstacles, you know. Because I know it's difficult, it's difficult to just give up. It's difficult, sorry, it's easy to give up. It's very easy to give up. And I just don't want to accept that. And I think trying to stay positive, no matter what. It's the way forward.
And for communicating to the team. If it was easy, everybody would have as many restaurants as you have. There's a reason why they don't.
That is true. Yes, that's true.
takes a lot of resilience as well as the execution. And you think around scaling that. So you've got this many restaurants now and a key kind of cultural trade is resilience. How do you think about scaling that with like younger teams? I'll be people who might turn over in the business. So it could be something that dilutes or how do you think about that?
So I might sound repetitive now, but we as a company or personally myself, we stick to basics. I believe you have to stick to basics. We have a saying that when we recruit someone or someone wants to join a company, we geeklify that person. That's what we say. And they always say, what does that mean? And we explain the whole process. We're very upfront. We say, we are different. We are chaotic at times. but we believe in these things. When you're scaling the business and wanna systemize it, I think the first thing that comes to mind is that everything and everyone needs to be the same. Otherwise you kind of lose that identity. But we are completely opposite. We actually champion individuality. And we say that to every single general manager that join us. We say to them, we'll... Welcome you into the company, show you who we are, but you can then push, deliver and behave the way you are rather than worry what would company think about. We just not like that. We champion individuality, let them be themselves. We also have a hands-on approach. I think that's what makes maybe the biggest difference. Me, my team, we operate from the sites. I don't really have an office. I mean, we have two offices that I can go to, but...
On the front line.
We're on the front line and it's a hands-on approach that many departments take. And I think we had many positive feedback from people joining us from other companies saying, we've never seen people in your position. Come and visit Soft and have a coffee, have a chat.
Means a lot to a team to see that, right? Everyone's bawling behind us.
It does, it does. think, you know, it's easy to stay in an office and, you know, look at the emails and reports day in, day out and try and understand the business that way. But I'm not sure that you can get the full picture just by looking at reports, you know.
Numbers only tell a part of the story, right? You need to feel the atmosphere and feel the feeling of the team. So giglify your team is super cool. Yes. You champion individuality, which is really, really cool, right? I think that's a really endearing trait to have. And it's probably a big reason why people would want to work there. Because it's easy to, as you said, systemize personality. Whereas the main thing for hospitality is like great experience is personalized, right? And the way you get that is from someone's personality.
We giddify everyone.
Yes, mean we have look 53 sites. I can confidently say we have 53 different general managers.
skillset, personality, everything. Do have a common pattern between them that you look for?
Everything, everything, everything.
not really, not really. as long as they're not too corporate or expect that we find we know that, maybe old school will fit in. They fit in with us a bit better. I mean, that's a maybe cliche, but you know, not really. No, we have many people join us from other companies where they have preconceptions or, you know, thoughts. then two months in, say, actually everything you said in interviews true. didn't think it was going to be like that. And I'm like, but why is that? It's like, normally companies say things, but you know, and then once you want you in, it's actually not like that. I'm really proud of that, to be honest, you know, because I think our model shows that you can be successful if you let them be themselves.
100 percent. So mixing the old school with the new school a little bit. So we see now technology is obviously becoming a bigger part of the industry. How do you think about balancing like the values and the virtues of an old school mentality of hospitality with technology? Are you big adopters of technology and getting in squid? And how do you think about it as a is it a propellant or a distraction for the business?
we obviously use technology, technology, you know, by itself, it's there and has been in the, in the history, the past, enabler of better lives and business. And that's what, what is this ball, right? but I always believe that. Technology should be implemented only if it didn't make people not think or not use their brains. That could be, I believe a trap with some of the systems and. the go-ahead that some companies use. If it makes people think and operate better, absolutely. But if it makes them switch off and say, well, computer said X, Y, Z.
How do you feel then in the world of AI where everybody's moving towards, not just in restaurants, but in every industry, you're almost asking the AI what to do, saying it back to you. Is that something that would concern you?
I'm not sure. don't think that anyone on this planet actually know what's going to happen in the next three months, 12 months. mean, the technology is advancing so fast. We're even looking into some systems, you know, exploring. But I think I have a feeling myself that with the advancement in AI and kind of implementation in everything in our societies, people will... want more human touch. That's my feeling. I think companies like us or other hospitality businesses obviously will have to embrace AI. I don't think you'll be able to live without it if you want to stay competitive and relevant. But I think not to the detriment of people almost feeling that I'm nobody, I'm nothing. I don't need to think.
Yeah, I agree. Hospitality is becoming more important, right? think as everything else gets more systemized or dehumanized, actually being around people and feeling that human touch and the experience matters more.
Well, I think we know at this time in human evolution that had a chat with our CEO the other day where we explored both options. What does AI mean for hospitality business? Does it mean that hospitality disappears altogether? Or does it actually mean that people will want more of it as a result of that?
You have that exact conversation internally. We're on the latter end. Hopefully you are too. That should be cool. So you mentioned like technology or AI or anything needs to serve a real distinctive purpose. How do you think about whether something is a process problem or if it's a technology gap in the business? And when you look at operations today, do you have like an approach where you go deep to see if the workflow or the operational process is Is as you expect or do you tend to look at see how technology can cover gaps? Be interested to see your approach.
think we, we currently looking and exploring, but only systems that can help us operate better. But in a way that I, that I kind of mentioned that our managers and our staff don't feel that they're no longer important parts of the business. Because if, they start feeling like that, they'll, they'll start switching off and I'm not sure. I'm not sure that AI and technology can. deliver hospitality.
Interesting take, yeah.
You know, I'm also not saying that we should not use it, but I think there must be a bar. We need to be very careful how people feel about that.
I think you're right. It's moving so fast. It's hard to.
It's moving so fast.
So we think about the next six months, we're in the midway point of the year. What's important for you or the brand? Anything that you can talk to us about in terms of, I don't know, focuses operationally or openings or anything like that.
So, I mean, yeah, we still expanding. We're still growing. We're still the largest restaurant chain in UK. I can proudly say that today. We recently opened our biggest opening in the North, Leeds. There's been a success and currently looking to open a site in York. That will be our biggest site. Yes. I believe so.
by footprint.
So our plan kind of stays the same, that we continue to expand, but we are very aware of the trap that you can fall into by just focusing on expansion and forgetting about the existing, if it makes sense. So yeah, we try to keep the fine balance in between. Yes, we want to grow and want to expand and want to always be the biggest or the fastest growing tie. group in the UK, but economies change. Customer preferences change, consumer behavior changes, and you constantly have to adapt and look at new trends and, you know, maybe sometimes slow down, sometimes speed up. Yeah.
When you think about your success and Giggling Squid's success to be the largest tie round in the UK. Why do you think that's happened? it what what do see within the business from being there some of the years now that you've been able to execute on that because it's not like you're the only brand that wants to do that.
Yeah, I'm not sure that we kind of always wanted to do that. I think it just happened. Unfortunately, in life and business, you know, when one business fails and another one succeeds or shines. So we've been through that journey as well, where we picked up some sites from the companies that unfortunately couldn't survive.
Very interesting. Seems like a balance between really solid execution, but like a desire to retain a really strong, as you said, founder led culture to giglify yourself in the things. So that's exciting. Look, I think watching outside in, I've always been super impressed with the brand's journey, right? It's just very unique.
I mean, we've, in the last, I don't know how many years, we've tried everything. We tried opening few sites a year to opening three sites in the span of six weeks.
Find where you're pushing pull your break point.
You know, and we then realized, yeah, we can do all that. I always say to all my team, if you can run and survive Keating Squared, you can run anything else, you know, as a good, as a good positive.
Okay, we're going to move on to the next segment, which is the quick turn. So it's a couple of rapid fire questions. First thing that comes to your mind, you can just talk through it. So what's one operational metric that you look at every day?
It's not a report. It's not an email. It's a face-to-face chat or coffee with my KP, with my chef, with the manager, with anyone in the business. That's the first thing I do every day. I, I value that more than I could ever explain.
What's a red flag tells you a site that's in trouble before the numbers do. So kind of following that thread, not even thinking about metrics. If you walked into one of the sites or one of the restaurants, I would know something's not at on point.
So basics and gut feeling. But I gut feeling comes from the first question, from the metric that I look at or live or consume every day. Because no report can tell you that. The report will tell you that when it's too late.
Yeah, so it's a lag indicator. It is you didn't get it for sure. What's the tool or system that you couldn't operate without?
I don't think there is one, to be honest. I don't think there is one that I will say, we couldn't live with a specific tool or system.
your own systems and your own way of working.
Yes, hospitality has moved through the history and embraced technology. We had pen and paper in the past and nothing else. Now we have AI and emails and reports and all that. But the life or the soul of it actually comes down to the people that run it.
What's one common belief about scaling a successful hospitality business that you disagree with?
I think that everything has to be planned and organized.
back to the chaos, the first thing you said. Yes.
back to the days. There's some success in that as well.
And do you feel like that's because it drives personality, like individualism?
Um, I think so. I think so. Uh, I know personally, I've always been like that, but, uh, companies like that as well. So I, I know I found the right home to be honest. and yeah, when we had, uh, when we had challenges in the past, especially COVID, that's when we realized that that's sort of, uh, I don't know what to call it. Negative trait, let's put it that way. It was a very positive for us.
Can you complete this sentence? I'm going to say the start of it and you try to finish it. The great opening starts with coffee. Coffee. Okay.
Very good. So I've been, been teaching. I always say teach this and my teams always joke about that. I don't mean opening a site. mean, opening it in any way, opening a restaurant in the morning or opening new site. When we have meetings and we have some new managers, always ask the same question. What's the first thing managers should do when they get on site? And then I hear all this, check the fridge temperatures, make sure this place and all the check emails. And I've been saying for years, the first thing they should do is have a coffee or whatever drink they have in the morning, tea, matcha, whatever it is they do. And then take that coffee for like five minutes, sit down and reflect, look around, maybe even walk around. And they always say, why? said, because by holding that coffee, you will slow down. You can't run, you can't run around with the coffee. You need to slow down, but by slowing down, you will see. Oh, that's dirty. That needs to be replaced. Oh, I remember what I said yesterday. So, yeah, I'm a big coffee drinker and kind of found my philosophy in a drink that I like and it works. Yeah.
as extremely deep, should trademark that. Very cool. Because back to what you said at the start, less is more, right?
Yes. Yeah. But in a, must be in a positive focus way. know, I never said to anyone, just have a coffee and do nothing for three hours. That's not productive. That gets you nowhere.
Well, best of luck with York and the continued openings. I really appreciate you making the way here for today. And Darko, look, thanks for joining us. That was an awesome conversation with Darko. What I really took away from that was his pragmatic leadership style and the fact that he just puts people to the front of everything in an era where technology and metrics and KPIs and dashboards can overwhelm even the most data fanatic people. Darko goes right to the root of hospitality. His people. He focuses on their personalities, their individuality, the experiences they delivered. His example of have a coffee, smell the air, breathe in, convey your restaurant was just fantastic. It really set the tone for the episode where he focuses on what hospitality is a people first business and everything else comes secondary. I thought that was a really special way to run the conversation. Thanks for joining. See you next time.
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